COME ON PENTAX WHERES YOUR full-frame

I think it is all a question of finances. In reality, the number of people who would actually shell out for a Pentax FF body and lenses may not be sufficient to make such a project worthwhile.

I'm sure I read a while back that Sony's FF line wasn't particularly profitable (if at all). I'd hazard a guess that FF isn't Nikon or Canon's most profitable market either. That is the real obstacle, very few businesses will knowingly go into a project that isn't going to make much of a return. I know people talk about the intangible benefits (i.e. if people see a pro using a Pentax FF then they are more likely to buy a Pentax product), but they cannot be even reliably estimated.

That's before we even get to the question of whether most people really need FF, or just think they do.

Some of my favourite photos recently have been taken by people using iPhones. Now I'm not suggesting that people get rid of their DSLR gear for iPhones, but it reinforces the point that its not about the kit (as great as buying kit is!). If people can't get satisfactory images out of a K5 (a far more capable device than I've ever owned) then £2000 is probably better spent on tuition than a FF body.

I can't comment on the D800, but I thought the D7000 was noticeably bigger than my K7 (in Jessops the other day) and the 5Diii was quite a bit bigger again. Are you sure the difference doesn't suddenly seem less now you have set your heart on the D800?

That said I tried out a total behemoth of a Canon Ids series a few weeks ago. While enormous compared to my K7, it was a manageable size I thought. But it would look ridiculous with a small Pentax prime attached. If Pentax create an FF camera they need it to partner well with their current FF lens assets and carry the design philosophy of the K7/5 forward, IMHO. That would give it a nice niche in the market place.

Finally got to touch and hold a 5d mk3 over the weekend and as surprised at how light it was, although I didn't like the ergonomics of it the images from it where outstanding.

But then for camera costing over £2k I wouldn't expect anything less.

As for complaining aboute lack of ff in Pentax surely anyone buying into Pentax knows the model lineup, I mean how difficult can a 3 camera body line up be to comprehend???

If you need ff now then you need to jump ship... Myself I can wait a little longer, but for how long I am not sure...

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PPG Portfolio Flickr
Equipment Pentax K-5 mk1 & mkii
Pentax: DA* 16-50mm 2.8 : DA* 50-135mm 2.8 : F 50mm 1.4 : DA 35mm 2.4
Tamron SP 400mm f/4 (65b) : Tokina AT-X SD 100-300mm f4

JR. I know I've mentioned this before ... somewhere

The issue for Pentax is that people who are willing to buy a FF camera are also willing to spend a lot of money on expensive lenses to go on that camera, often lenses that cost nearly as much, or even more, than the camera itself. Therefore the camera is only a small part of the profitability equation. It could even be considered or marketed as a loss leader for lenses and supplementary equipment.

Since Pentax don't have an upgrade after the K5 they are virtually forcing people (and before some dolt suggests the 645 we are not talking about such a mega jump, not that the 645 can be considered to have the same functionality as a DSLR anyway) to move on to another manufacturer. Again I've seen the ridiculous statement made that they should have thought of that before buying into Pentax - but when you are looking to move into a DSLR for the first time most people don't imagine themselves needing / spending that sort of money on a FF camera and top quality lenses a few years down the line, people just don't think that far ahead.

Sony's FF line didn't take off for many reasons, most of them not directly related to the quality of the A850/900 and that is a whole other subject in itself.

Pentax's lack of a FF camera, or upgrade path, not only disincentivises some buyers from buying into, say the K5, or buying Pentax in the first place, it forces those that subsequently need / or think that they need (effectively the same thing) a FF camera out of the brand and loses them multiple sales of their most expensive lenses etc.

Your last comment re. tuition rather than buying a FF body is rather disingenuous. People have a right to spend their money on whatever they want to without being preached to and that is without even considering the legitimate benefits that a FF camera can offer to many photographer's regardless of their technical ability or that indeed many people have indeed reached a stage in their development where a FF would offer them something their current APS-C doesn't, to say nothing of incentive, drive or maybe just satisfaction from owning such high quality equipment. All of which is anyway irrelevant to manufacturers, including Pentax, who just want to drive profits.

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http://frogfish.smugmug.com/ Pentax. Pentax DA*300/4, Cosina 55/1.2, Lens Baby Composer Pro & Edge 80, AFA x1.7, Metz 50 af1.
Nikon. D800. D600. Sigma 500/4.5, Nikon 300/2.8 VRII, Sigma 120-300/2.8, Zeiss Distagon ZF2 21/2.8, Zeiss Distagon ZF2 35/2.0, Sigma 50/1.4, Nikkor 85/1.8, Nikon TC20EIII, Nikon TC14EII, Kenko x1.4, Sigma 2.0

Ah maybe that is a psychological consequence Though as you say (and you can see from the figures I gave above) the difference in actual cms is very small and in weight just a 160g - inconsequential when considering lenses, tripods and all the other gear we cart around. Now ergonomics is something else and particular to each individual, which can change over time or may only be a case of adjustment via familiarity.

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http://frogfish.smugmug.com/ Pentax. Pentax DA*300/4, Cosina 55/1.2, Lens Baby Composer Pro & Edge 80, AFA x1.7, Metz 50 af1.
Nikon. D800. D600. Sigma 500/4.5, Nikon 300/2.8 VRII, Sigma 120-300/2.8, Zeiss Distagon ZF2 21/2.8, Zeiss Distagon ZF2 35/2.0, Sigma 50/1.4, Nikkor 85/1.8, Nikon TC20EIII, Nikon TC14EII, Kenko x1.4, Sigma 2.0

Well be all that as it may, we can take on board that you are interested in buying a FF frame camera. Let's not take that too far though because it usually ends in tears and we don't want that.

Incidentally, no-one would be a dolt for suggesting the 645D. Nor can we assume that
It might be an opinion, but it is pure conjecture. I can see your enthusiasm is strong though.

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Best regards, John

I sold some lenses and just had enough for a Canon MKIII.

Then I bought another lens and now I'm skint again

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Nothing to see here, move along please ....

Some people do though, and that's why a lot of people don't buy into Pentax... in fact the other day I was eavesdropping on a Jessops rep selling a Canon 7D to a couple, who seemed like first time DSLR buyers - and he explicitly mentioned the full frame upgrade path.

Well if someone were to seriously suggest going from a K5 to a $10,000 MF camera (and then the lenses) over a $3,000 DSLR that would be the least I would assume


Go on any Canon/Nikon forum and see the lenses they are using (or just price them on SRS/KEH etc.). I know you know what they cost so TBH conjecture doesn't come into it.

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http://frogfish.smugmug.com/ Pentax. Pentax DA*300/4, Cosina 55/1.2, Lens Baby Composer Pro & Edge 80, AFA x1.7, Metz 50 af1.
Nikon. D800. D600. Sigma 500/4.5, Nikon 300/2.8 VRII, Sigma 120-300/2.8, Zeiss Distagon ZF2 21/2.8, Zeiss Distagon ZF2 35/2.0, Sigma 50/1.4, Nikkor 85/1.8, Nikon TC20EIII, Nikon TC14EII, Kenko x1.4, Sigma 2.0

Does it show ?

I think that is as near to a perfect kit as I can come :
K5 plus Ltds etc.
D800 plus 500mm and TCs

Now to sell some lenses and find the cash.

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http://frogfish.smugmug.com/ Pentax. Pentax DA*300/4, Cosina 55/1.2, Lens Baby Composer Pro & Edge 80, AFA x1.7, Metz 50 af1.
Nikon. D800. D600. Sigma 500/4.5, Nikon 300/2.8 VRII, Sigma 120-300/2.8, Zeiss Distagon ZF2 21/2.8, Zeiss Distagon ZF2 35/2.0, Sigma 50/1.4, Nikkor 85/1.8, Nikon TC20EIII, Nikon TC14EII, Kenko x1.4, Sigma 2.0

Self control Mike, self control.

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http://frogfish.smugmug.com/ Pentax. Pentax DA*300/4, Cosina 55/1.2, Lens Baby Composer Pro & Edge 80, AFA x1.7, Metz 50 af1.
Nikon. D800. D600. Sigma 500/4.5, Nikon 300/2.8 VRII, Sigma 120-300/2.8, Zeiss Distagon ZF2 21/2.8, Zeiss Distagon ZF2 35/2.0, Sigma 50/1.4, Nikkor 85/1.8, Nikon TC20EIII, Nikon TC14EII, Kenko x1.4, Sigma 2.0

Frogfish, we are on the Pentax User forum.

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Best regards, John

Good sales pitch. But if people are buying a Mercedes 200 and are taken in by talk of later upgrading to a 650 .. (poor analogy I know but the first one that comes to mind) well there's really nothing can be done to help them

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http://frogfish.smugmug.com/ Pentax. Pentax DA*300/4, Cosina 55/1.2, Lens Baby Composer Pro & Edge 80, AFA x1.7, Metz 50 af1.
Nikon. D800. D600. Sigma 500/4.5, Nikon 300/2.8 VRII, Sigma 120-300/2.8, Zeiss Distagon ZF2 21/2.8, Zeiss Distagon ZF2 35/2.0, Sigma 50/1.4, Nikkor 85/1.8, Nikon TC20EIII, Nikon TC14EII, Kenko x1.4, Sigma 2.0

It's pretty difficult to talk about a Pentax FF camera without bringing other brands into it.

This Pentax only rule has to be the most unpopular rule on PU TBH but maybe I over-stepped your tolerance level in this thread

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http://frogfish.smugmug.com/ Pentax. Pentax DA*300/4, Cosina 55/1.2, Lens Baby Composer Pro & Edge 80, AFA x1.7, Metz 50 af1.
Nikon. D800. D600. Sigma 500/4.5, Nikon 300/2.8 VRII, Sigma 120-300/2.8, Zeiss Distagon ZF2 21/2.8, Zeiss Distagon ZF2 35/2.0, Sigma 50/1.4, Nikkor 85/1.8, Nikon TC20EIII, Nikon TC14EII, Kenko x1.4, Sigma 2.0

No-one is stopping them spending their money on a FF system, there are a number available. I'm just asking the question whether people really need them. It also seems ridiculous to me to berate Pentax for something they don't make, if FF is that important to someone then they should do what a number of other people do and buy Nikon/Canon/Sony.

The thing is I have seen better images taken with a 6 megapixel DSLR than I could manage with any camera, so surely there is something to be said about mastering the kit you have.

The other thing is people talk as if Pentax aren't aware that FF is even an option for them. I'm sure if they thought the investment would be worthwhile they would have done it by now, maybe they will, who knows. One thing I don know though is that a number of people were clamouring for a mirrorless body which would natively accept K-mount lenses and retain full functionality. When Pentax offered just that, the reception was lukewarm and sales haven't set the world alight. Asking people what they want (or what they think they want) is sometimes the worst thing you can do.

The prospective demand is also a huge hurdle, whatever you might think. 10-15 diehard enthusiasts on a forum being willing to buy a FF body and lenses doesn't make it a viable project. The vast majority of the FF market already have a FF camera and are therefore heavily invested in lenses and other accessories, this measn the target market you'd be aiming at are the poeple that might want a FF camera, but are just as likely to shudder at the price when the camera is announced.

Finally, you're last comment about just wanting to 'drive profits'. Don't for a second think that any of these companies are doing what they do for the joy it brings them. Like any other company, Pentax are doing what they think is good for them, people on forums might think they know better, but they don't have shareholders to answer to.